We don’t believe this as a whole in the Bible believing society, or the Fundamental society for that matter, but a person can be saved, and never see much growth. Their works will most likely go the reprobate route. Disobedient and abominable. A sinner can get saved and still do any wicked imagination of the heart. This foundation must be understood, or you might as well not continue reading.
A saved, washed in the blood sinner, has a standing with God and a state in this world, and they are two different positions.
Does salvation bring good works? No! Salvation brings a new man. There is MUCH scriptural support for this. Salvation does not spiritually cut away our sins from our flesh. We are still in our sins until our death or resurrection. After salvation, yielding to God’s word and his spirit is what gives good works? If a man or woman does not submit themselves to the spirit and the book, they will never grow in grace.
If sinners after salvation do not grow, it usually consist of lack of discipleship, lack of seeking God’s truth in the book, and other Christians making the mark of service so far attainable to the new Christian’s tender mind. Some sinners don’t give up certain sins for years. Some do. Much like Jesus showed us in the parable of the sower. As us Fundamentalist are wholeheartedly focused on fruit bearing, why do we not remember such a illustration from our Lord on seed bearing.
Matthew 13:18-23~Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Mark 4:19~And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
When we think of the word, abomination, most Fundamental Christians anyways, we think of sodomy or whoredoms and things along those lines. In the years that I have been involved with other believers and preachers, I have never heard any other abominations preached on except for sodomy. Maybe men referenced others, but messages and lessons on abominable things always deal with sodomy. The reason for this is other passages that deal with other abominations may hit to close to home, and references to abominable sodomy just gives many preachers verses for easy targets.
Again, sin is sin, but who can deny the truth of impact of some sins over others? Is a white lie as wicked as a harsh word? Is fornication is vile as hatred and variance? Is impure thoughts worse then harsh and cruel words? Or as a lustful look rarely offends anyone, but God.
Sin is sin yes, but they are not all equal! Fornication, adultery, sodomy and lasciviousness are all legal and accepted in many countries and civilizations, and can all lead to horrible diseases and physical effects while violence or murder can throw your life away in man’s laws. Some sins carry more sever penalties.
We should be mindful of those sins that God deems loathsome, and has extreme aversion to. It is rarely preached on today, but Idolatry can destroy both nations and individuals and God absolutely considers it abominations. Idolatry was preached much in the word of God. But sodomy is always the trumped subject when these sorts of verses arise.
He is holy! The bottom line is God hates all sin, again, this is why we must have a mediator to bring us to HIM in righteousness. He is our righteousness, Jesus Christ.
The bible talks of certain sinful groups not being allowed into the Kingdom of God. And over zealous, evangelistic, sin stomping preachers love these sorts of verses for the assumed reason.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Myself and many other preachers have gone to Romans 1 for years and rallied around verse 32 saying the group that “are worthy of death” is referring to the sodomites in verse 26 and 27.
Do we not understand that we are ALL worthy of death! It’s in fact they which COMMIT such THINGS are worthy of death! Any Christian that has ever lived is FULLY capable of committing any sin listed in verses 29-31. We harp on this verse perhaps because it gives us easy reason and justification to tell a sodomite he is “worthy of death and he is gonna bust hell wide open!”
So to assume that since any Christian can commit such sins, the question remains, can a sodomite be born again and continue in sin? Though I did not always believe this way, I feel constrained to say yes according to the work of God and his promises. It was difficult for me to accept this considering the Fundamental ranks I came up in.
Now, don't misunderstand, Sodomy is a vile putrid, filthy sin. There is no condoning of it here at all in any sense of the word. Not much debate us needed on this point. This is not motivated by hatred of such people, but according to what the word of God says about those who commit the act. Sodomy is an act that people can commit. It is a despised and abominable sin.
One must wonder though, why a man can live in fornication in a church for years and we will allow him entrance and position. A man can abuse alcohol and drugs for years in the church, but the congregation will have mercy and overlook the struggling brother. Why is a person who is committing lasciviousness, whoredoms or sodomy any different? I know the general answers for this question. “Remove the sodomites from the land”, and “God hates the sinner” verses, stacked up like pez in a pez dispenser, “The bible says God hates the sodomite, the bible says in Psalms 5:5 Psalms 7:11, Psalms 11:5, that he hates the wicked!”
Sodomy is most assuredly wrong and perverse, but it is not the unpardonable sin. And as far as the works of the flesh go, it is no different then fornication, and adultery in the sense of it being total iniquity and absolute sin. God hates all of it. Of course if there is a repetitive, addictive or destructive habit forming behavior towards any sin it can lead to ruin.
Can a sodomite live in his sin after salvation? Well? Can a liar live in his sin? Can a fornicator live in his sin? Can a defrauder of the brethren live in his? Can a charlatan live in his sin? Can a extortioner live in his sin? Can a idolater live in his sin? Can a Christian live in sin? Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. In this life, and sinner can choose to live in sin no matter how deviant.
It’s odd to me how hypocritical we really are. We call a homosexual names like Queer, Faggot, and Pervert. We think these people are somehow separate from other sins in their wickedness. I have known MANY fornicating Christians in Christian schools and churches in my day.
Did we ever go up to those men and women who were struggling with their sin and say, “Hey filthy fornicator, you need to repent and get saved?” Maybe you have. Or imagine greeting the gossiper as they come into church. “Hey sister gossipy!”. “Hello Brother slanderer.” Do you see our “inordinate affection” to be so hard against those we hate in our hearts? That to me is the underline problem, our hatred is the only thing that can motivate the cruel words that we use often in dealing with this class of people.
What about a preacher lifted up in his own pride? But those “stinking homo’s that have destroyed OUR nation that God GAVE US!” “We must stand against perverseness and righteousness!” “The sodomites are taking over!” “Bar the doors, they ain’t a coming in here!”
Sadly, this is our attitude! Hatred in our hearts is wrong. Why do we only treat Sodomy this way when we don’t see any such manner in the NT. I am aware of God’s hatred for the sin and the sin of sodomy. I am aware of how vile it is, and I only view it as such because it is a biblical fact and something that is against nature, however, to zealously preach and single out the sodomite is an error of assumptions.
Sodomy in the NT and the age of grace is another abominable sin. Nothing more. It doesn’t necessarily mean a person has rejected Christ or they are going to Hell. I know how this sounds to many hardcore, fundamental, evangelistic, macho led, testosterone filled, bible swinging Christian men.
Young people of today are bombarded with much of this homosexual propaganda. It is simply the world we live in. We are to protect our own children, not the worlds. It is globally accepted now. Many “queers” we destroy and bash may just be confused young children or young adults who are simply deceived, trendy, or simply haven’t figured many things out yet. We don’t even consider others circumstances, just our unwavering supposed call to reform everyone not like us. So we bash the young mind, the 15 year old who is ignorantly deceived, because we must STAND against the wicked sodomites?
Can I say a homosexual is absolutely lost and hell bound? Can you? According to the precepts of salvation, and the promise of eternal life upon belief in the finished work of Christ, I am obligated to say NO!
Nothing can separate us from him, even our disgusting vile sins in this flesh. If we deny him, he abideth faithful. It is the amazing thing about His blood and grace, any sinner can receive him. Can sinners continue in sin? Yes they can. Does any sin we commit separate us from the gift of God? No. So why would sodomy? Why is this different in our eyes. Is it because we fear it so in our macho ways?
A believer is not what he does, it’s who he is. Nothing can separate us from him. If people choose, who have trusted in his shed blood, to reject the warnings, heeding, and many admonitions to live a pure life, they will reap the consequences, but they still won’t get what they DESERVE because of the blood.
It is what is so miraculous about it. It’s God’s righteousness. We don’t get what we deserve either! It is the work of salvation. Now I know you “repentance theology” preachers disagree, but you can’t explain things to hollow headed individuals hellbent on reforming, retreading sinners and preaching for vain glory.
In theory a Christian can be guilty of crucifying Christ afresh in continual unrepentant sin if you hang around in Hebrews 6 to keep the people in fear? This is not dealing with the repentance unto salvation. They are different.
You guys are still hanging around with John the Baptist, swimming in the milk. They choose to forsake his grace to help in the time of need, of their own choice and freewill, to live a life of flesh seeking the lust and fulfillment of the pleasures of sin in this life.
They will answer for THEMSELVES! That pastor friend of yours can do the same thing, of their own choice and freewill, to live a life of flesh seeking the lust and fulfillment of the pleasures of sin in this life in fornication, and defrauding the brethren, but he gets a pass does he?
Just admit it. You hate those people, the abominable sodomites and until you grow up, and learn some meat, and put some knowledge with that preacher zeal, you will continue to hate them. Hate has no room in a heart of a Christian. It violates grace and the law and even the FIRST commandment!
They were just like you once, hopelessly lost in their sins, so deep in sin, they can’t even see a way out. But that right there is the problem. They can’t say the sodomite is like them in any way. The sodomite is the easy target for the sin hating confrontational preachers. Like a hunter mowing down duck!
We as bible believers are fully aware that a Christian if he so chooses can live in any sin he wants. Why does this not apply with the sodomites?
To the extent of our freewill, we are the masters of our fate and the captain of our soul. This is said, understanding that our power over sin comes from Him. But this is not instantaneous or immediate. We choose! Much of our sins have nothing to do with the devil tempting us, or God putting us through trials, but just our rotten sin filled flesh doing what is does by nature, before and after salvation. Until our bodies are in a glorified state, we may still be subject to our old man and all his iniquity.
It is after salvation, and the reading of God’s word that we learn to submit to God’s spirit and possess our vessels in sanctification. If a saved sinner chooses not to read his word, or seek his will, many will most assuredly and inevitably continue in sin, even while grace abounds in this age. And these same folks may be your neighbor in heaven. A person who believes and chooses to get saved does it because they so choose of their own free will. A person who lives for God does it because they desire to do it. He will not make you!
No sin will enter in to OUR Lords Heaven! This is why they must be washed away! This is why there was shedding of blood. This is why there was one sacrifice for sins. We are all liars, there is none that doeth good. We have to have a death of a testator. We must be sinless when we stand before God. They only way to be sinless is to be found in Him. We are not sinless on this earth, in this flesh, but our soul and spirit are his, and they are washed, sanctified, and justified.
Are we so arrogant, that we think we will get to glory, and God will separate us as sinners and non-sinners? There will be NO sinners in Heaven. It is impossible.
But we still use these certain verses to jump on those who are not as we. He cannot deny himself. The same way we exercised free will to receive the gift of salvation, we have free will to reject the book, and to go our own way after we have been made new creatures. God will let you. Free will is important to God. Service out of love, not out of fear.
I have seen preachers tell a Christian to their face they are lost based solely on the sins of the flesh that became evident in their life, through their own fruits.
The commonly used phrase such as: “If you were saved, you wouldn’t live like that”, or “A good tree brings forth good fruit”, as if their works are evidence of salvation. We love hanging around in Matthew 5 don’t we. Last I checked, in the age of grace, a bad fruit CAN fall off a good tree. None of us are sinless yet!!! Why do we get so arrogant, prideful and sometimes, just plain stupid with the scriptures?
We see sodomy, therefore we see abomination as if they are separate from us. Different yes, separate no. We should see ALL abominations, and the specific sins they are.
What is an abomination?
1828 Websters, Abominable
Very hateful; detestable; lothesome. This word is applicable to whatever is odious to the mind or offensive to the senses. Unclean
Abomination
Extreme hatred; detestation. The object of detestation, a common signification in scripture. The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. Hence, defilement, pollution, in a physical sense, or evil doctrines and practices, which are moral defilements, idols and idolatry, are called abominations.
So, having said all of that above, there are 3 places in scriptures where the word abominable and good show up in the same verses. These 3 verses teach a important truth.
Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalms 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Unholy works or iniquity is abominations. In fact, upon looking into these verses, you see the abomination is idolatry and denial of the Lord. Abominations are associated with works. Sodomites are not abominations as in a noun as in the “accursed thing” in Judges, their works are abominable. If we apply the scriptural rule, we are all abominations in his sight! He CAN not accept us, but by the blood of Jesus Christ. God cannot lie, and would have to go against his own word to do so.
Titus 1:6 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
This verse speaks volumes. If someone professes to know God, and in their works deny him, their works are abominable, disobedient, and reprobate. Our works are abominable. Not just the sodomite! US!
Indulge me for a moment, and let me ignore the abominable works of sodomy, whoredom, and uncleanness, as we full well know the sort and the references. What about us, the body of Christ, the church? What about us other sinners who think we are not sinners?
Old Testament References of sins that can be committed by a child of God, that God deemed abominations.
Idolatry - Deuteronomy 7:25
Frowardness - Proverbs 3:32
A proud look - Proverbs 6:17
A lying tongue - Proverbs 6:17
Hands that shed innocent blood - Proverbs 6:17
A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations - Proverbs 6:17
Feet that be swift in running to mischief - Proverbs 6:17
A false witness that speaketh lies - Proverbs 6:18
He that soweth discord among the brethren - Proverbs 6:19
Speaking wickedness by the lips - Proverbs 8:7
A false balance - Proverbs 11:1
The sacrifice of the wicked - Proverbs 15:8
The way of the wicked - Proverbs 15:9
The thoughts of the wicked - Proverbs 15:26
The proud in heart - Proverbs 16:5
He that justifieth the wicked and condemneth the just - Proverbs 17:15
A scorner of men - Proverbs 24:9
The speaker of fair things - Proverbs 26:25-28
The prayer of he that turneth away from hearing the law - Proverbs 28:9
The law is no more… Now it’s the book!
We don’t rest in the law - Romans 2:17
Dead to the law - Galatians 2:19
Avoid striving about the law - Titus 3:9
The law made nothing perfect - Hebrews 7:19
Look into the perfect law of liberty - James 1:25
New Testament Reference deemed abomination.
He that is highly esteemed among men - Luke 16:15 - Pride!
There it is. In the New Testament, God says one thing is abominable, and it is the pride of man that esteems men above God. Where is the sodomite references? The Christian, in the Laodicean age, while the falling away is happening before our very eyes, the world and the church is slipping farther and farther into apostasy.
I will say it again. A Christian, who professes to be born again is capable of committing anyone of those abominable sins above, including whoredoms, and sodomy. Sodomy is not some separate sin. It is a abominable sin, like the rest of them.
Moving past the obvious things we know to be abominable, sodomy and whoredom, it’s amazing how much God deals with what comes out of our mouths, and the connection to pride. Precisely the reason we should spend time in Proverbs and Paul’s epistles to understand how to talk to people. We should look to Paul’s epistles for this same manner. We scorn our neighbors, the passer byers within earshot of our thunderous roar?
Why do we allow some of these sins open before men? Why are we so froward, or disobedient and ungovernable? Why do we justify zealots who sow discord among the brethren by creating preeminence? Why do we not hold men accountable to lying anymore? Why do we not look to the wisdom of having balance in our lives? Why do we allow men to scorn, and to despise with extreme contempt all the wicked people on the street corners? To ridicule, to mock, to slander?
I will finish with this. Take the number of time the Lord deals with Sodomy directly and “Frowardness” directly. Both are an abomination are they not. Proverbs 3:32, For the froward [is] abomination to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous. Proverbs 11:20 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight.
What is Frowardness one might ask?
Froward - Perverse, that is, turning from, with aversion or reluctance; not willing to yield or comply with what is required; unyielding; ungovernable; refractory; disobedient; peevish; as a froward child. (Disposed to disobedience and opposition)
This definition could define many preachers I know today! But who ever preaches on this abomination? Now if you have visited this blog, you know I have a tendency to pick on certain baser sort of street preachers, who love the confrontational aspect of public ministry. I have a question for you? What abominations do you commit on a weekly basis under the guise of ministry?
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith. Deut 32;20
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury. 2 Sam 22:27
He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. Job 5:13
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward. Psalms 18:26
A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked [person]. Psalms 101:4
To deliver thee from the way of the evil [man], from the man that speaketh froward things; Prov 2:12
Whose ways [are] crooked, and [they] froward in their paths: Prov 2:15
Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. Prov 2:24
A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. Prov 6:12
All the words of my mouth [are] in righteousness; [there is] nothing froward or perverse in them. Prov 8:8
The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Prov 8:13
The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out. Prov 10:31
A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends. Prv 16:28
He shutteth his eyes to devise froward things: moving his lips he bringeth evil to pass. Prov 16:30
He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: and he that hath a perverse tongue falleth into mischief. Prov 17:20
The way of man [is] froward and strange: but [as for] the pure, his work [is] right. Prov 21:8
Thorns [and] snares [are] in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them. Prov 22:5
Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 2:18
When is the last time you stood against the froward, your own kind. When is the last time you examined your frowardness, and forward heart for God. By definition of the word, you men are peevish (silly), and childish. It I because in your public outreach, you lack understanding. You may have very commendable zeal and boldness, but you” lackest one thing!”
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 1 Corinthians 14:20
You focus on the sodomites and their destruction of the world. They have always been. Your protest of them only mutes the preaching of the gospel! You have become FROWARD! You have made your positions to be disposed to opposition (confrontational)! You have set your selves to be unyielding and not willing to comply with what is required of thee, (The first commandment) which is to love thy neighbor! You won’t even hear a witness of several brothers against your deplorable behavior. Your testimony shows that you hate the sodomite with such passion, that any passion for souls is suppressed. Your ministry shows that you want to engage in combat with them. This is frowardness!
Who rejoice to do evil, [and] delight in the frowardness of the wicked; Prov 2:14
Frowardness [is] in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. Prov 6:14
The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable: but the mouth of the wicked [speaketh] frowardness. Prov 10:32
You rejoice to go “street preaching” in your confrontational manners! You twist Paul and Christ to do so. You delight in the FROWARDNESS of the wicked! It’s why you go to such wicked engagements of the world.
Frowardness is in your heart, it is why you devise to do mischief in public ministry. Dress up in funny suits, outfits for theatrical reasons, use guile and trick questions to bait and mock ignorant froward sinners. Two froward individuals going at it. And we say it is God blessing the work of us being on the streets. We are so wrong!
You men are ungovernable, froward. Not even your pastors can control some of you. Some of your pastors are standing right next to you! You men are in deception. You hold your call to preach above the love of God in your heart! You suppress that love with your fire and testosterone to reprove and rebuke! And you guys are way out of line on your conclusions on what is deemed abominations and what is not. We are all unworthy, and we are all without excuse aside from his precious blood! Just sayin….
They are both abominable. They are both religious. Read Isaiah 1,KJV You will see that the sodomite had religious practices. The preacher wants worse for whoever he thinks the bible is against. Sodomite facing sodomite.
ReplyDeleteSodomite is not Gay not a nudist not a zoosexual either.
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